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 About the hispano celta occidental.

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Nombre de messages : 11
Age : 33
Localisation : Lugo (Galicia)
Date d'inscription : 05/07/2008

About the hispano celta occidental. Empty
MessageSujet: About the hispano celta occidental.   About the hispano celta occidental. Icon_minitimeDim 16 Nov 2008 - 23:37

Somewhere of these forums I have read certain opposite argumentation to the one to include countries as Galicia or Iberian regions as Asturias within the scope than celt is considered at present.

Certainly, it is that in these Hispanic zones any dialect is not used like celtic lenguage, but this argumentation is so sterile because the present celtic languages are in frank regression and on the brink of madness their extinction (2015 for the extinction of the colloquial use of the gaelic language according to UNESCO).

Nevertheless, well is known to the importance of the celtiberian for the systematic study of the celtic languages in the antiquity. What much people do not know is the existence perhaps than understood like one of the older celtc dialects known (partly), and that comes defining itself as Hispano celta Occidental, a conglomerate of related dialects spoken in half western of the Iberian Peninsula.

What it is not known is that, as Patrizia San Bernardo affirms, hispano celta Occidental is the dialect from which it will derive the own celtiberian language later, because in him they are all the innovating elements and the own archaisms of this one… and to this one it to be missing the innovations and the archaisms of that one.

What it is not known it is that as demonstrates in most recent multidisciplinary studies are that the origin of the celtic languages is without doubt the European West, but distinguishing two centers of diffusion, after the assimilation of the anindoeuropean hunting towns by an Indo-European population (that will bring the agriculture), and that Leensberger defines as urnenfelder celtic for the continental populations of central Europe, ligurian celtic for the populations of the West Iberian and British islands, both people responsible for old rivers names classified like paleoeuropean (traditional alteuropäisch), since evidence that most of the lexical forms (and also the suffixes) of these river names are of use common in territory that historically come considering like celtic, giving credit to the classic affirmation of Renfrew of which the celtic language we could or establish it in the megalithic age.

What it is not known is that but the recent genetic studies reaffirm the more recent linguistic positions:

“Celtic languages are now spoken only on the Atlantic facade of Europe, mainly in Britain and Ireland, but were spoken more widely in western and central Europe until the collapse of the Roman Empire in the first millennium A.D. It has been common to couple archaeological evidence for the expansion of Iron Age elites in central Europe with the dispersal of these languages and of Celtic ethnicity and to posit a central European “homeland” for the Celtic peoples. More recently, however, archaeologists have questioned this “migrationist” view of Celtic ethno genesis. The proposition of a central European ancestry should be testable by examining the distribution of genetic markers; however, although Y-chromosome patterns in Atlantic Europe show little evidence of central European influence, there has hitherto been insufficient data to confirm this by use of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA). Here, we present both new mtDNA data from Ireland and a novel analysis of a greatly enlarged European mtDNA database. We show that mtDNA lineages, when analyzed in sufficiently large numbers, display patterns significantly similar to a large fraction of both Y-chromosome and autosomal variation. These multiple genetic marker systems indicate a shared ancestry throughout the Atlantic zone, from northern Iberia to western Scandinavia, that dates back to the end of the last Ice Age. […]The primary genetic legacy of Ireland seems to have come from people from Spain and Portugal […]. They seem to have come up along the coast through Western Europe and arrived in Ireland, Scotland and Wales. […]the first dimension is clear: Atlantic European samples, including those from Ireland, Wales, Scotland, and Galicia, as well as Iceland and Norway, occupy positions on the edge of the European range, toward the Basque pole. The Iberian Peninsula is notable as an area of steep north-south gradient, with the north more similar to central and Western Europe and the south more similar to Mediterranean Europe and the Near East. The second dimension does not appear to display any obvious geographical pattern but does distinguish Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Iceland, and Galicia from areas in Fenno-Scandinavia that have low values in dimension 1.

Same samples of hispano-celta language:

1) In this western Hispanic territory it appears the more archaic and more modern lexical form at the same time: cf. NG BORVS < *bhor-ó-s and NG BORMANICVS < *bhorm-an-iko-s. In the Keltiké the type with suffix *-mo- is testified (gaul. bormo, celtib. bormeskom)

2) Conservation of archaic lexemas like for example superlative IE. *-isto (chronology discussed in NWÄI 423): cf. SEGESTICA; besides the classic form derived from * -(is)amo-: SEGISAMA, and whose final evolution would see in form SESMACA < *segisama-ka-.

3) plural genitive in -on: cf. ATEROECON < *pater-ok-yom, BELVICON < *bellovikom.

4) Conservation of the /bl/ group from form IE. /pl/: BLETISAMA > *pletisama, today Ledesma.

5) Palatal anticipation with the creation of the western exclusive suffix - aiko-: ARBARIAICO > *areberyaicos < * (p)ºrHi-bher-yak-yo-s; KALLAIKOI < *kall-ak-yos.

6) Lenition of the deaf oclusives: cf. TOVDADIGOE < *toutat-ik-os, LANGONIDAEGO < * (p) laniko-nit-aikos; CALDOBENDA < *kaleto-benda.

7) fall of -g- between vowels final result of the lenition (centuries before which in Welsh): MATVUENVS < matugenus, CELTIENVS < celtigenus, SESMACA < segisamaka.

Or, to not extend in other many characteristics of this dialect, the passage of v > f, centuries before in Irish: cf.FALMVS/VALMVS; FATRANIS/VATRVS, VATRICVS; FIDVENE cf. gaul. VIDVNNA; FIGENVS/VIGGANVS; FINDENETICIS with the element *windo-, etc.

• ALMAGRO-GORBEA, M.: “El origen de los Celtas en la Península Ibérica: Protoceltas y Celtas”, Polis 4, 1992, pp. 5-31.
• DE BERNARDO STEMPEL, PATRIZIA: “Centro y áreas laterales: La formación del celtibérico sobre el fondo del celta peninsular hispano”, Palaeohispanica 2, 2002, pp. 89-132.
• DOUGLAS PRICE, T.: “Europe’s first farmers”, Cambridge University Press, 2000
• Harald Sverdrup and Ramon Guardans: “Systems dynamics applied to reconstruct the dispersal of modern man on Earth and language patterns during the last 120,000 years”, Lund University, Sweden, 2004
• KRAHE, H.; “Indogermanisch und Alteuropäisch”, in Saeculum, 1957, 1.
• PROSDOCIMI, A.L.; “L’iscrizione gallica del Larzac e laflessone dei temi in -a, -i, -já”. Con un ‘excursus’ sulla morfologia del lusitano: acc. crougin, dat. crougeai, Indogermanische Forschungen, 94, 1989, pp. 190-206.

“Langues et écritures des premiers Celtes”, in Les Celtes, Veneza. Aldo Luigi Prosdocimi In I Celti, la prima Europa, Grifo nosso 1991.

• RENFREW, C.; “Archaeology and Language. The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins“, in The Mankind Quarterly, automne-hiver 1989, pp. 129-158.
• WIIK, K.; “A new Atlas on the Origins of the Europeans”, Jyväskylä: Atena Kustannus Oy, 2005.
• VILLAR, F.; “Los indoeuropeos y los orígenes de Europa”, lenguaje e historia, Gredos, Madrid, 1991.
“Indoeuropeos y no indoeuropeos en la Hispania preromana”, eds. Universidad de Salamanca, 2000.
• Brian McEvoy, Martin Richards, Peter Forster and Daniel G. Bradley: "The Longue Dure´e of Genetic Ancestry: Multiple Genetic Marker Systems and Celtic Origins on the Atlantic Facade of Europe", Trinity College Dublin & National Millennium Committee, 2004
• James F. Wilson, Deborah A. Weiss, Martin Richards, Mark G. Thomas, Neil Bradman , and David B. Goldstein: "Genetic evidence for different male and female roles during cultural transitions in the British Isles", University of Oxford/University of California, publ. 2005
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